Monday, October 09, 2006

Tolerance In My Community.

Visitation Catholic Church in Elmhurst.

Every October, Respect Life Month, the front lawn of Visitation Church is adorned with little crosses. The crosses are meant to remind us of women who have died having abortions. Every year they do it.

Chris had an interesting post recently about tolerance. I'm not sure if this is, but I think it might be a good example of conflict and tolerance.

The church and I disagree.
I am Pro Choice. I drive by it everyday. Though I disagree with it, I consider it an effective method without disrespecting me.

They aren't barring my entrance anywhere. They aren't trying to intimidate me, physically or otherwise. Based on their newsletter, they approach the problem with compassion and counseling rather than guilt and condemnation.
I do think their focus is selective, but who's isn't. I do hope they preach education and safe sex, but I don't wanna get my hopes up.

We have some neighbors whose children attend school there. My kids play with their kids. Everyone gets along fine. I submit we are tolerant of one another's views.


Flannery Alden said...

That's a nice, subtle way to be pro-life. I can tolerate that, too. There's a certain respect there.

I remember when I worked at OSU, these white moving vans would drive through campus and had a picture of an actual fetus lying next to a quarter (for scale). I believe it was also printed on a banner and dragged behind a plane. It was so shocking to behold. It was in-your-face and awful. I couldn't tolerate that, so I always blurred my eyes or looked away when one of those trucks came barreling towards me.

Phil said...

That method of condemnation and guilty I think widens the gap they are trying to close.

dirty said...

This subject is so personal for me and one of the only things that I can relate to through catholic beliefs. I am so against abortion that right now as I type I can't help but get mad...really mad. If you are old enough to have sex and you get pregnant...then take fucking care of it or give that child to someone who can't have any of their own (those people hurt every day knowing there are people out there murdering babies). I was adopted...someone could've murdered me but she made the adult decision and gave me up to people who could love and care for me. In 2002 I gave birth to a still born son...fuck all people who kill their children because they weren't ready to be a parent...then you weren't ready to have sex. Life begins from day 1...point blank.

PS- I always thought those crosses were for the babies who died...fuck the murderous women.
PPS- I have a friend that has had abortions and she knows how I feel so we never talk about it.
PPPS- Sorry for going nutty in the is so personal to me...madmadmad.

Phil said...

...and there's that point of view.

Flannery Alden said...

You've taken on a sensitive subject, Phil.

dirty said...

The subject tend to make me bitter...sorry.

Phil said...

Admitedly, the image and the subject are sensitive, but I was trying to make a point about tolerance, not anyone's stance on abortion. That I found this form of protest effective without being offensive. Though myself and the curch disagree I felt a mutual respect, or tolerance, for each other.

I'm a poor writer and I think I just said it better there than in the post.

dirty said...

no, made your point very clear...I tent to go off if someone even bring the subject up...regardless on HOW it was brought up.

Chris said...

Phil- Kudos for taking on abortion. You are a brave man. I think Dirty displayed rather well why it is next to impossible to have reasonable dialogue on this subject - point blank! Dirty, I understand your views are strong due to things that have happened in your life, but the fact is neither you nor I know with any certainty when life begins. You may THINK you know, but it is essentially un-knowable. That sort of absolutism and belief that you are in some way omniscient (the only way you could possibly know when life begins) makes it hard for a person like me, that has a differing opinion, to discuss this.

Grant Miller, Esq. said...

I think people can and should disagree about when and where life begins and ends. But the difficulty lies (lays?) on how or if the government should determine it legally.

Phil said...

Chris, my opinion for what it's worth is, after having kids and hearing their hearts beating while inutero, I think once that heart starts, you have life. From, at least, that point on. But I admit that is debatable.

Grant expands this debate to include examples like Terry Schiavo.

Unanswerable questions aside, do you find the church's statement offensive? Diagreeable? Respectful, or sympathatic?

Chris said...

Dirty, you are aware that there is no heart beating at conception, if indeed that is what you consider "day one". As for what the church does, I really don't care. They are free to do as they please. As far as I'm concerned, it is dishonest because they are trying to simulate grave-markers for things that I don't believe were ever human lives. Again, just my belief and others are welcome to different ones. I don't believe I support murder when I support legal abortion. I have two questions for you

1- Would making abortions illegal stop women from getting them?

2- If women got abortions after they were made illegal, should they be tried for murder? Given the death penalty?

I guess that's three questions...

Phil said...


Did you mean that for me or Dirty?

Chris said...

I was responding to Dirty, but anyone can answer if they like.

Flannery Alden said...

I like mittens.

Dave said...

The answer to Chris' questions are both "no".
I think that the church's cross display is an excellent protest-without-being-assholes-about-it.
I would like to think that that speaks well of Elmhurst (even if it is transforming into Lincoln Avenue).
Dirty--Wow. You Catholics are wild. Women who died during abortions got what they deserved? That's not a very christian sentiment. I understand you went through something very traumatic, I hope you find peace.
I also love interacting with your opposing viewpoint.

Big Orange said...

how about:

1) "if you're against abortion, don't have one." --bumper sticker

2) "you can't be both pro-life and for the death penalty." --another bumper sticker

I'm with Flannery on this one.

Phil said...

I think we can all agree, we like mittens.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts.

dirty said...

Chris...I will work on a post regarding my views...of course it is all my opinion and I understand other people see things differently...of course as a human being I think I am right though (but that's just me) but I do respect that others feel differently.

dirty said...

Dave... was raised catholic but do not practice any longer.

dirty said...

I will be postiong my opinions on my blog later today...MY OPINIONS...not necessarily anyone elses.

vikkitikkitavi said...

The truth is that human beings make decisions about the relative value of "life" everyday, and abortion is part of that. Even the concept of killing in self defense is based on a relative value.

If abortion is a moral equivalent to murder, can it be justified to save the life of the mother? How about the health of the mother? And who gets to say whether her "health" is endangered? Does she get to say, or only a doctor?

We could also go to the old but reliable condrum of the burning fertility clinic: you can save one two-year-old, or a dish full of zygotes. Which do you save?

Oops, there's that pesky relative value again.

lulu said...

I deal with at least 1-2 pregnant students every year. In a perfect world they would have the babies and give them up for adoption. Last time I checked, we didn't live in a perfect world.

Many of my students have parents who would throw them out if they came home and announced that they were pregnant. Being 16, pregnant and homeless is not a good plan. And no, if you can't take care of a child, you probably shouldn't have one, but we're talking about teenagers here, they aren't known for their common sense.

People get raped. A woman who is raped is supposed to carry the resulting baby to term?

You seem to live in a black and white world. The rest of us do not.

dirty said... views are based on a perfect world...I stated that in my post. My world may look black and white to you but it is mine and looks colorful to me and who would I be if I agreed with everyone else?

This whole subject is based off of personal views and the life you have lived and I respect every view...yet the way I feel stands.

dirty said... whole debate is the spawn of a perfect world that will never be...such is life. We can wish, right?